In a world where SEOs are clinging to tactics of days gone by, AI is reshaping search, and algorithms are going bonkers, Mordy Oberstein, founder of Unify Brand Marketing, has some thoughts. Buckle up.
Some of the topics covered in our interview:
- Google algorithm updates.
- AI search hype.
- Whether the golden age of the internet (and SEO) is over.
- A preview of his upcoming presentation at SMX Advanced 2025 in Boston.
Reminder: SMX Advanced returns June 11-13 in Boston. Get your tickets now!
This transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Danny Goodwin:
Hey everybody, Danny Goodwin, editorial director of Search Engine Land. I’m back with you and I’ve got a great guest lined up. Mordy, how about you introduce yourself? I think a lot of people already know you, but who are you and what do you do?
Mordy Oberstein:
If you know me, I’m sorry, but no, I’m just kidding. I’m Mordy Oberstein the founder of Unify Brand Marketing. So, I work on brand strategy and my whole thing is I tie that into performance because I used to sit on the SEO and performance side of things. I’m a consultant for Semrush at the same time.
Danny Goodwin:
And thanks for doing this. We’re excited to have you speaking at SMX Advanced in Boston, June 11 to 13. We’re back live and in person-, all advanced sessions. Mordy will be talking about Google algorithm updates, which we will talk about in just a few minutes.
Before we get there, I figured since I have you here, I’d love to talk to you about the state of things in SEO at the moment, which are, very much in flux and very interesting and challenging. There’s been a lot of change in the last two years especially. Based on what you’re seeing at kind of like a high level, what do you think we’re doing right as an industry and also what are we doing wrong as we try to adapt to all these AI and search changes?
Mordy Oberstein:
There’s been enough change over the last two days! I’m more of a cynical person. I start on what we’re doing wrong. I’m in a WhatsApp group for some kind of SEO thing. … I happened to look at this WhatsApp group, which I almost never check, and people were talking about the age of, SEO and targeting, keywords it’s not dead. I’m like, what? It’s been dead for a long time. And I feel like the thing we’re doing wrong, it’s hard.
And I don’t blame the people in the group because I understand why they’re doing this and I understand why it’s so hard to adapt to change. And I’m sitting here on the other side of the aisle to speak. So it’s easy for me to say. But it feels like people are still putting up that wall of resistance no this will be just fine. It may not be as bad as it seems, which I think it’s not as bad as it seems, but it’s certainly not the same as it was before either.
The good thing is that there also a lot of people talking about it’s not the same as it was before. I mean also on that there’s a lot of overhype on the flip side of that is AI will take over everything and there’ll be no room for any just give up now. Kind of like my diet. Just give up. So I think that’s also not good.
But I think the good thing is that people are coming to some sort of middle ground where they realize SEO is a vehicle. It’s not the be all, end all of everything and it has to fit into a much larger strategy more often than not. That’s a really good thing.
Danny Goodwin:
Absolutely. And speaking of that bigger picture, for so long SEO has been really about just driving rankings. So, how can SEOs provide more value beyond just that and kind of move into this new era?
Mordy Oberstein:
I’m going to give you a sports example because that’s what I do. I don’t know how to stop doing it. A while back, I was looking at the National Football League. Football is the game you play that’s not actually with your feet, but it’s called football. And it’s not because the ball is a foot long. I have no idea why, I looked it up. And in NFL football, some background on this. They got rid of some of the preseason practice games and instead they added an extra regular season game. That was a trade-off.
The players like, “we don’t want to play an extra game. It kills our bodies.” So the owner said, “Okay, the practice games that nobody cares about. You cannot play those and you’re going to play the extra game.” And their thought was like, “No one cares about the preseason anyway.” But if you go into I mean, I haven’t looked at this in a little while, but this is a good example just if it’s not true anymore, but I’m sure. It’s very similar for many things.
If you go into the branded searches and the branded traffic they’re getting, a lot of it is about pre-season football. So, you, the owners, might not care about it from a certain point of view, which I understand. But people are still searching for that and still looking for that. So, if I was on an SEO team and I saw that I saw the brand switching direction, yeah, doesn’t matter. I would be stop, wait, much of our traffic comes from this and so many people are searching for these terms every single month we’re missing an opportunity, which I don’t think is how many SEOs operate
Danny Goodwin:
So, it’s big opportunity, big change. how do you sort of see it playing out? is there anything you’re kind of excited about with all these changes in the world of SEO that gives you some hope for the future?
Mordy Oberstein:
We’re literally recording this, what three or four days I don’t know after five days after I/O so hope is a four-letter word right now. It feels like think the hope to me is that there has to be some kind of market correction I think the hope is that this thing costs Google so much money that it can’t possibly be this way forever.
There has to be some kind of correction. They can’t keep going after the competition and just trying to put their necks on ChatGPT the entire time. At some point, the cost of this thing is going to force a correction. What will force that correction? Because right now, okay, Sundar Pichai just recently did an interview with the Verge, which I’m sure everybody’s heard about now at this point.
And I know everyone in the SEO space, the Verge, but it was a really good interview. So I get past that, I don’t know, adjective you have with the Verge for a second and watch it because it was really good. And one of the things when they say Google says, “yeah, we want to do what’s best for our users.” So was saying we can’t offer a bad experience. Users will not come to Google anymore. And that’s why you see we’re forced to do the right thing.
But Google has two users. They have the people who use Google and they have the people who buy stock. And those two users sometimes want different things. So he’s not lying when he say, “oh yeah, we’re doing what’s good for our users.” Except the user he’s talking about right now are the people deciding whether or not to buy Google stock or to dump it. At some point that has to change.
Because he’s right at a certain point. if it doesn’t change, the experience will drive the stock price down. So, there has to be some kind of market correction that has to inevitably come because of the way users are going to either like or not like what’s happening, but also because of the way users talk about or think about AI.
And the example I’ve been using is my wife, which I don’t know if she appreciates me talking about her on podcasts or whatever or not about this, but she’s a nurse. she had no clue about Completely clueless. And they made her go to a seminar about AI and she came home I had no idea this stuff was going on. I will never trust AI ever. And people are starting to catch on a little bit. And I think the real interest that’s where the hope comes from.
Because then once that happens then the market has to the stock price is inflated – Google’s trying to hype you out. And that creates hype and that creates Google’s doing amazing. That’s buy stock. I’m over completely. But once that hype stops and I feel like you’ve seen the hype shift. I think that’s the good news for SEOs. Now it’s all about agents. The hype about LLM is kind of starting and we’re already talking about agents. Here’s my wallet. Go around the internet and spend things for me. I know some people probably will like it. I can’t even imagine that.
Danny Goodwin:
That seems ripe for disaster in a lot of ways. And I feel like it almost is maybe for the average end user, it’s going to be way above their head how do I do this sort of stuff unless they make it super dead simple.
Mordy Oberstein:
Yeah. But that’s what I feel is interesting. So let’s say the average person is sort of on this spectrum of my wife. I know there’s a lot of AI things going on. We’re marketers. We’re knee deep in business every single day. Most people are talking around at the dinner table don’t actually really understand it, but they’ll come off ” yeah, I really understand it.”
But people will understand and have confidence in something until they have to open their wallet and hand over their credit card number. Then they feel like it’s a different kind of I feel confident in my knowledge of AI. That’s a different level there. And I think that’s where things come back down to earth a little bit.
Danny Goodwin:
And I know a lot of the average people usually just use Google to go to websites too, like YouTube, etc. So you don’t need AI to do that.
Mordy Oberstein:
No, also like I’ll just say I and I’m different. I’m sure there are people who are not like this. when Google automatically fills in your credit card details? I feel weirded out every time it does it. I can’t believe I’m giving my credit card number like this. And it’s so easy to fill in.
Danny Goodwin:
I know. I have the same reaction every time that happens. Like, what?
Mordy Oberstein:
Now it adds even like the back number of the card with a CVV… Now it’s just like here, go for it.
Danny Goodwin:
I know. I believe it was OpenAI CEO is talking about how he wants ChatGPT to basically be your friend for life all your deepest dark secrets and all that.
Mordy Oberstein:
I love that. It’s so funny when they talk that way. First off, I was piping about this on LinkedIn at some point, I maybe didn’t even go out yet. I think it might be scheduled when Google I/O and Sundar was talking about Gmail and how we can now answer back much quicker and blah blah blah, fuller and that it makes me a better friend. I’m like, no it doesn’t. No one ever said that. You know what? When I use this AI to automatically answer you without actually me typing the response and me just trying to get the emails done and said, “you know what, I’m really being a great friend right now.”
And these companies oversell this thing like we’re going to be your friend we’re going to be your best almost like the Chris Farley I’m really dating myself back from Saturday Night Live in the 90s where he put the motivational we’re going to be best buddies me and him that’s what it feels like they’re doing but they’re coming off. Literally Chris Farley would come off in those skits We know everything about you. Isn’t that great? No, that’s horrible. I feel creeped out right now.
Danny Goodwin:
Yeah, me too. I mean, it’s basically like that movie “Her.” It’s like we’re going to have people trying to marry their operating system soon and all this fun stuff.
Mordy Oberstein:
I keep coming back to that movie. I’ve never watched it. Is it good?
Danny Goodwin:
It’s good. Yeah, it’s very much we’re almost at that point.
Mordy Oberstein:
If humanity starts dating LLMs, I’m out.
Danny Goodwin:
I mean, there are plenty of apps for that. I’ve seen a few ads for your virtual girlfriend. I wonder who’s behind this and is going to be getting all that data from you.
Mordy Oberstein:
Some dude living in his mom’s basement is behind.
Danny Goodwin:
Yes. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. But I think we’ve gotten a little off track. We should be talking more about all good. It’s all fun. But yeah, so you talked about what gives you a little bit of optimism. So what has you worried most right now in SEO? Is it AI Overviews, zero click, something else? is there anything keeping you up at night?
Mordy Oberstein:
A lot of things keep me up at night, but not this. If it were to keep me up at night is the fact that it’s interesting because it was in the Sundar interview also. [Nilay Patel] asked, “Hey, isn’t the web kind of not like all and no it’s constricting people are building pages and it’s not getting as much traffic and Google’s answer back, no, Everything is expanding.
I’ll plug my SMX talk because I pulled data on this from Semrush. The web isn’t growing. It’s stagnant. Nilay’s right. The data totally corroborates what he was saying. It feels like the web isn’t growing. And what he said back to Sundar was everyone is pumping out content. So you’re saying, “Yeah, there are more web pages.” Sundar’s answer there is more traffic. His answer back was there are more web pages. That wasn’t the question. The question was not are we pumping out more content.
I am positive we are pumping out way more content in every platform than we’ve ever done before. But it’s not bringing in the same level of traffic. So the web, if it’s not growing, it’s stagnating. It’s worse than stagnating, it’s really constricting. Because we’re pumping out all of this content and it’s still not growing. And what keeps me up at night is are we I don’t want to be hyperbolic – is the golden age of the internet over? That’s what worries me. And are we aligned to that or not aligned to that reality or not? That freaks me out a little bit.
Danny Goodwin:
Yeah. When was the golden age? Early ’20s here or…
Mordy Oberstein:
I guess I don’t maybe a little before 2015ish every social media was exploding Google everything was exploding. Whatever platform you’re on now, whether it’s search, whether it’s so people claim us all the time on social I don’t get the same traction that I used to get. if it’s the same thing everywhere, then it’s not the medium, it’s not the channel, it’s the space altogether. And that’s a little scary, I guess.
Danny Goodwin:
I was just looking it up because I was trying to remember. He said that Google had crawled 45% more web pages in the last two years, which may be accurate but we also know that there’s a big crawl not indexed issue too and I remember too from the antitrust trial I forget what the number was but they said that their index hasn’t actually grown much in the last two or three years also. So it’s like there’s a lot of content. Google’s not surfacing it all though.
Mordy Oberstein:
Yeah that’s a great point.
Danny Goodwin:
Maybe that’s where the disconnect is. It’s just like yes, there’s more content, but they’re not getting it all into search.
Mordy Oberstein:
He was trying to get around that question.
Danny Goodwin:
I mean, he’s a master of that. I’ve said it many times. I don’t know if I ever said it on a podcast, but Sundar is a master of using a lot of words to say nothing at all,…
Mordy Oberstein:
He says so much and nothing at all and it feels so frustrating to listen to him at a certain point. I wonder, can I ask you a question?
Danny Goodwin:
You can.
Mordy Oberstein:
Do you think the bill’s coming due on him? Because after that interview it felt like what it doesn’t work the same way anymore what he’s saying and either he’s going to have to shift or he’s just not going to be as effective. That’s a problem for him.
Danny Goodwin:
That’s a good question. I mean, performance-wise, I think long view, he sort of did the shift to AI. That’s his big claim to fame. He did get that ball rolling.
But, it’s interesting that they brought Sergey back into the fold … I feel like it could go either way because they need the help of the [founders]. I’m sure Larry must be involved too in some capacity. And it’s just like, if they’re bringing them and they need help.
When OpenAI came out, it’s like that was the first time I felt like, we may have an actual legit, entity that can challenge Google. I know that they don’t have the resources Google has and Google’s got so much of a data head start on them, but without that, I don’t even know if we’d be here right now. If ChatGBT hadn’t launched, so much that was just such a moment for the industry.
Mordy Oberstein:
Yeah, it feels like so long ago, too. It was forever ago.
Danny Goodwin:
Two and a half years ago, but it feels like so much longer. What do you think? Do you think Sundar may be…?
Mordy Oberstein:
I don’t know. I feel like these corporations, I hate to say this, but the C-level never goes and they’ll swap out the head of search or get rid of that, was it Liz Reid? I’d be worried if I were her. that’s a bad spot to be. It’s a no-win corporate wise.
Danny Goodwin:
Yeah. It’s very true. We will wait and see on that.
Mordy Oberstein:
Yeah. Sorry, Liz.
Danny Goodwin:
We love you, Liz. So based on everything, we’ve talked about, curious for your take on this because again, you’re outside of SEO a little bit here at this point, but do you see SEO heading toward growth or decline or some sort of reinvention? And I say reinvention because there’s been a lot of talk about answer engine optimization or generative engine optimization or whatever -EO we want to call it, but do you see that that shift is imminent or what? Yeah. What are you sort of feeling?
Mordy Oberstein:
I don’t know what SEO ends up looking at. like anyone I know what SEO will end up looking like if it’s like no one really knows what SEO will look it won’t look like it did a year ago. I feel confident in saying that. Where does the internet end up going. I feel like it’s not an SEO question. Everyone keeps it’s not an SEO question. Where is the web going? And I feel like someone asked this on Twitter earlier. I’m speculating, what do I know? I could be totally wrong about this, but Sundar did mention this in his interview yesterday. He said people still want to explore things, at one point. I forgot the exact way he phrased it.
And I’ll say this as a former teacher and maybe first everyone’s biased. I’m biased from my point of view of how I look at reality. I have an education background and I’m on the brand side of things. So, I’m biased to looking at it this way. It annoys me to know I’m like, “Yeah, do brand and the SEO.” Okay, but how do you do that? You just stop talking about it and do it. So, everyone’s biased.
My biased take as an educator is people you’ll never get the human need to explore something … is so innate and ingrained in the human experience that yes, we want immediate things. I want how many home runs did Babe Ruth hit? 714. I don’t want to go to a website. Also, you should know that. You don’t need to Google but that building that knowledge scheme, yes, you’re going to want immediate answers. Yes, what’s the weather out? No, the answer box. that’s true. People do want that kind of information and AI will help that.
But the exploration side where I really want to understand something. I’ll give you an actual example. Had a minor health thing a little while ago. It’s no big deal. But as an internet doctor, I was Googling everything and it was overwhelming. But I really went down the rabbit hole until my wife’s I’m an actual medical professional and stop. Which is always nice to hear. But I didn’t want the immediate answer. In fact, I didn’t even want the immediate results. the Mayo Clinic, WebMD, it was all telling me the same thing. And yeah, I got that already.
I need something a little bit deeper because I really want to explore this a little bit deeper. I actually went to Reddit and that was a problem because some of the stuff on Reddit was great. Some of it’s really bad and all of it is anxiety-ridden. So, that wasn’t working for me. I really had no nowhere to go, which was where I ended up. I just ask the doctor, which was a novel idea.
But that need is not going to go away and I think where AI ends up is almost like a content portal. And Google demoed this when it originally announced Gemini part of it was hey if I’m asking a question about my kid’s birthday and blah blah blah blah blah I get this kind of format with these kind of results and I’m asking about I don’t know what’s the best microphone for podcasting. Then I get this kind of layout with these kind of results. I think that’s where we’re going. And there’ll be an AI summary with the top-level information there, but there’ll be segues to dive deeper. So the web will be more refined. I don’t know how to say this because it’s going to sound so that’s not good marketing. Don’t try to expand. I’ll give a hot example.
Wix, who I used to work for, recently announced it’s called Wixle, and it’s almost like a Canva kind of thing, which is cool, I guess. But I’m like, Wix is a great tool. My website’s built on Wix. I didn’t actually just promote Wix. I’m not only a member, I’m a client. Yeah, that’s an old fool, too. which also rings true for me right now. But don’t expand to try to compete with more Wix. Be more of who you actually are and refine that and dig deeper into that than trying to expand out into other things cuz we’re not in an era of expansion. I feel we’re in an era of refinement. So deep, so quickly.
Danny Goodwin:
That was pretty deep. I like that error.
Mordy Oberstein:
I don’t know if we’re supposed to do that on podcasts.
Danny Goodwin:
No, I liked it. That’s great. so yeah, so you’ll be at terrible segue, but I don’t know how you go from that deep to this shallow, but you now time to promote the conference.
Mordy Oberstein:
Next, I’m gonna promote the conference, which I’m super excited. My first real speaking gig internationally was at SMX Advanced like 2017, 2018. So, it’s very nostalgic for me.
Danny Goodwin:
Yeah, that’s Yeah. And we’re in Boston June 11 to 13. You’ll be speaking on the Thursday the 12th. And you are talking Google algorithm updates. Easy to say, how to deal with relentless rank volatility. For someone who’s watching, and maybe is thinking about coming, what are you going to be talking about and what knowledge bombs are you going to be dropping?
Mordy Oberstein:
So, I’m not going to say what’s in there yet because you have to sign up, but I think I’m probably the only person on the planet who knows what’s in both SimilarWebs algorithm tracking data set because I built it when I was at RankRanger and Semrush’s. So, I’m going to spill tea on what’s the difference between those two systems and then I’m going to spill tea on how the algorithm just went bonkers. But it’s more volatile and less volatile all at the same time.
Danny Goodwin:
It’s Schrodinger’s algorithm?
Mordy Oberstein:
It’s mysterious.
Danny Goodwin:
And how does Barry Schwartz play into all this? Because I did see your deck and…
Mordy Oberstein:
Barry’s everywhere.
Danny Goodwin:
I see his face a lot. So apparently he’s somehow involved in this.
Mordy Oberstein:
Everywhere. My goal in life is to troll Barry, which I feel like if it was a full-time job, it’d be like a six-figure salary. Yeah, but there’s a great slide in there. There’s a great I swear I set the deck in. I didn’t real So, first off, I was a little disappointed because I didn’t know Barry was going to look at it before. I wanted him to see it for the first time at SMX. But I think it was Who was it? He went to someone’s house. I forgot who it was. And he’s ringing the doorbell. They took a picture of the doorbell cam. It’s so good. You have to see it.
Danny Goodwin:
I can’t wait to see you two doing the Q&A portion and all the in-person trolling that I’ve grown accustomed with you two on podcasts and on Twitter and everywhere.
Mordy Oberstein:
I just can’t wait to give Barry a big hug.
Danny Goodwin:
Right? Barry loves hugs.
Mordy Oberstein:
Yeah, loves hugs, If you see him there, big hugs.
Danny Goodwin:
Absolutely. Everybody hug Barry Schwarz. All right.
Danny Goodwin:
That does it for us. Mordy, thank you so much for joining us. really looking forward to seeing you in person, which I think will be the first time I’ve met you in real life at SMX Advanced.
Mordy Oberstein:
My god.
Danny Goodwin:
And I’ve known you for so long at this point, but never have met you because I think we met during COVID. So, yeah.
Mordy Oberstein:
Wow, I never realized that. Holy cow.
Danny Goodwin:
Isn’t that crazy?
Mordy Oberstein:
I’ll give you a hug when I see you then.
Danny Goodwin:
I don’t mind hugs. As long as there are long meaningful hugs, I’m all good.
Mordy Oberstein:
Yeah. long walks on the beach, too.
Danny Goodwin:
Yep. In the city of love, known as Boston. All right, Mordy. Thanks again for doing this so much. Really appreciate it. And look forward to seeing you on talking at SMX Advanced June 11 to 13. Come see Mordy live. It’s going to be awesome. Thanks, everybody.