AI is fundamentally reshaping SEO, digital PR, and brand visibility – and how users discover and engage with brands.
To help make sense of some of the ongoing changes, I interviewed Kelsey Libert, co-founder of Fractl. Some of the topics covered in our interview:
- How to get ahead in a time of exponential AI change.
- How to adapt to semantic and probabilistic search.
- The future of brand visibility in LLMs, social, and beyond.
- A preview of her upcoming presentation at SMX Advanced 2025 in Boston.
Reminder: SMX Advanced returns June 11-13 in Boston. Get your tickets now!
This transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Danny Goodwin:
Hey everybody, Danny Goodwin, editorial director of Search Engine Land, and I’ve got another great guest and upcoming SMX Advanced speaker. Kelsey Libert is joining me. Kelsey, for those who don’t know you, please introduce yourself, who you are and what you do.
Kelsey Libert:
My name is Kelsey Libert. I’m one of the co-founders at Fractl. We’re a content marketing and digital PR agency that is also in the process of building 30 AI agents for PR, SEO, and social media. We’ve been in business for over 13 years now and we’re one of the number one agencies on Clutch out of 30,000 firms around the world that do content marketing. So I’d like to say that we’re experts in the industry of what we work in and we work with everyone from Fortune 500 companies to startups and helping them rank in search and really earn media and noteworthy publishers like Time, Business Insider, Huffington Post, and similar authorities in your vertical.
Danny Goodwin:
And that sounds like that’s going to be increasingly important in the AI Mode and AI Overview age. And I’m sure we’ll get into that a little bit later. As I mentioned, SMX Advanced is coming up just a few days from now. Kelsey will be speaking. She’s got some really awesome research that she’s done with us here at Search Engine Land. She’s doing most of the data crunching right I think right now as we’re talking.
Kelsey Libert:
Yeah, getting the graphics all together, but the data is in and it’s pretty exciting stuff.
Danny Goodwin:
Can’t wait for that. We’re going to be debuting that at SMX Advanced in Boston June 11 to 13. Before we get into that stuff, just sort of wanted to talk to you a about lots of stuff going on right now in our industry. I’ve been asking a lot of people. I’d love to get your take on it, too. What do you feel like we’re doing right as an industry right now as all these changes are going on? And maybe also what are we doing wrong?
Kelsey Libert:
I think the one thing we’re doing right is really embracing AI – especially a lot of the SEO industry leaders that have been around since, late ’90s, early 2000s have seen this systemic shift that’s coming with AI and they’re really embracing it and doing a lot of the exploring. Kind of what automations we could be building. How can we leverage agents to kind of scale what we know works effectively in our industry based on years and years of experience. And even beyond just the SEO leaders according to our research there’s really widespread adoption across the entire industry with 74% of people kind of leveraging AI to be more scaled in their workflows more innovative in their workflows. So I think there’s a lot of opportunity right now with people really willing to push the boundaries, experiment, redefine how they do their work in the age of AI.
Danny Goodwin:
It feels like there’s been a kind of a massive shift here with the introduction of AI Mode. where it’s not really going to be about ranking anymore in search, although not that SEO is going away by any stretch. As I’d like to keep reminding people, Google’s still getting five trillion searches a year, which is a good amount of searching. but, people just seem to be seeing that this is shifting. So for SEOs who are thinking it’s been all about ranking and driving traffic. So how can we still have value heading forward beyond just being able to rank.
Kelsey Libert:
Yeah, I think one of the things that we’re doing wrong or the biggest challenge is that we’re thinking more so still in a lexical mindset, where we’re talking about keyword frequency and SERP positions, but really the future of search is a semantic and probabilistic when you talk about AI integrations and people searching through LLMs. And so where we need to evolve our strategies is in kind of that more comprehensive approach to search and that treating AI not just as a Google update but a paradigm shift in how people are going to discover and evaluate information. Really looking to optimize brand strategy beyond just Google and being in the top of the search engines and looking at how can I take my best content and really look to promote it in a cross-channel syndication. Look at how can you optimize it for search and social and LLMS. Repurposing your best content. Really translating those brand goals into structured data, authoritative content, and digital PR that feeds not only just the search engines, but every other platform that your audience is engaging on and looking to learn about your type of products.
Danny Goodwin:
It sounds a lot like search everywhere optimization. I’ve been seeing that one pop up yet again as if it’s not that it’s new, but I’ve been hearing that term for so long. It’s just interesting that it’s come back to that again. So, as we try to figure out what is this new thing heading forward, Is it GEO? AEO? Whatever it is?
Kelsey Libert:
Yeah, that’s been a really interesting debate. And it’s funny, I was actually just talking to my dad about this the other night because he’s been in search marketing since the early ’90s, buying 5,000 domains or whatnot. And so, he’s kind of brought me into the industry. And really, just in marketing in general, I think everyone always wants to adopt a new term for the same thing, but ultimately marketing is about creating something of value, and then getting it out into a lot of different areas that your audience reads and demonstrating that you are an expert, you are superior to your competitors because of X, Y, and Z and then building that kind of authority and knowledge and value for your consumers. So really, as long as everyone just focuses on that, I think really whether you call it inbound marketing, content marketing, digital PR, earned media, SEO – it all has a different name, but I think it all comes back to the root value of kind of what is your brand putting out there that consumers want and need to learn.
Danny Goodwin:
Absolutely. So, a lot of change going on right now. I’d be curious to know, from your perspective, is there anything that you’re just super excited about right now in SEO with everything that’s going on?
Kelsey Libert:
To me, what’s most exciting is the skills that AI can give you that go beyond maybe what you previously had. So, I just wrote a recent Search Engine Land column about how I learned Cursor this year, which allows you to kind of tap into dozens of different models while you’re coding or you’re doing data analysis and instead of having a very limited context window, the number of tokens or whatnot, it kind of really opens things up. So people that previously, let’s say, didn’t have like me, a very elementary coding experience working in CSS or whatnot, I was able to build 30 landing pages for my site for the agents that we’re working on. And I was able to custom code, the whole thing just with simple prompting back and forth with me and then of course I handed off to a developer who then loaded it all to the site.
But previously, I needed a whole team beneath me to do a lot of that work. But now I was able to work directly with AI to kind of have a copywriter, a developer, a designer. That’s very scary, but it’s also very exciting too as a business owner to think about how can I take my most knowledgeable people and really help scale them in a way that previously I might have had to pair them with interns or something. The scalable knowledge and the access to knowledge that you would have otherwise needed to get a master’s degree in coding. It really makes it more tangible for people to innovate in ways that they couldn’t previously and create new experiments from people that you might not have seen doing those experiments before because they didn’t have those skills. So, I think it’s a pretty exciting time to be able to mash things together and innovate in a way we couldn’t previously.
Danny Goodwin:
Great points. On the other end of that, is there anything that’s kind of worrying you right now? Because, change does bring a lot of uneasiness. People are kind of concerned about the future of the industry, in particular. So, I’d be curious. is there anything keeping you up at night right
Kelsey Libert:
First of all, the search experience is evolving, right? I think to think about AI as just another Google update is the biggest risk and complacency around that. I think there’s a lot of potential as more and more people in the mainstream go to use ChatGPT and similar tools what will happen is that you will develop a liking right towards your own personally trained GPT. I use it for everything from gardening tips to cooking recipes and data analysis and simple queries about, sporting events that I’m going to or something. So, it’s really dominating for me as an early innovator, what I previously used Google for. And so, that’s really scary. I think especially in how marketers are evolving their strategies to ensure that they are still mentioned and their brand visibility within these new emerging channels is really important.
What happens when a model can hold much more context and maybe RAG isn’t required in the same way. Do I think that’s happening this year no but do I think that’s on the horizon in the next few years potentially certainly. So complacency I think around that people that are too much wait and see what’s going to happen versus thinking right now what can I do to make sure that my brand visibility is relevant is appearing in LLMs and whatnot and AIO’s what can I do now to change that versus saying this isn’t going to happen. AI isn’t going to go away, it’s the future of our entire world. So getting more people out of that wait and see and into experimentation I think is really important in marketing right now. Especially PR, that’s really my forte in the industry of what I’ve done the most of over my career.
And the number of people I’ve seen saying how AI can’t be leveraged to personalize outreach or can’t be leveraged to help you identify different publishers to pitch your campaigns – it’s disappointing to me, I guess. I want more people to see the potential and those leaders to be the ones driving the change and adoption and helping people really see the opportunity that AI can be to help scale the effective workflows versus taking this role of … “oh, this is terrible. This is going to way go away” out of fear. I think it’s more fear-based and a lack of understanding than anything else.
Danny Goodwin:
Yeah, speaking of PR, since you’re the perfect person to talk about this, there’s been sort of this ongoing fear and dread, especially among publishers, about, AI Overviews taking traffic and all this sort of stuff. And I forget who posted it, but it’s like at some point if Google starves all these publishers of traffic, they’re going to start shutting down. And then where does PR fit in if that is the case? But then I also thought that obviously we’ve heard that Google Discover is coming to the homepage soon which could kind of be a lifeline to a lot of publishers.
So question in there is basically is there any concern there with the future of news publishers and PR as all this stuff is happening or do you see this as more of a temporary sort of storm that we’ll get through and figure out what the new normal is after this?
Kelsey Libert:
Yeah, I think it’s a temporary storm. I mean, of course, when AI first hit the market, I think a lot of publishers were quick to sue, understandably, right? You just used all of our information to train and we had no payment or involvement in any of that. So, that was certainly the right decision, I think. And fortunately as a result of that, you see more partnerships, I think, between publishers and OpenAI and whatnot for, how they want to be able to work together more.
Because ultimately AI isn’t out there reporting on breaking news or, being able to distill new research or putting together that new research. Sure, it can be used. You still need a human in the loop, is the saying now, to be producing that type of research. Understanding the trends that, people are wanting to learn more about and presenting something new. So, while currently AI can be used to source a lot of information, it isn’t the source of new information and that’s where publishers and media will always be relevant to search to whatever platform exists, so, I don’t see any of that going away.
And, if anything, I think what’s great about AI is that, yes, it has commoditized content in a lot of ways. However it’s going to push us as an industry I think to go beyond theformational queries and whatnot that AI will already has replaced in a lot of places and it will require us to do more kind of thought leadership and data-driven analysis and things that are more valuable potentially right to many consumers because it is something that goes beyond a surface level answer.
Danny Goodwin:
And so based on what you’re seeing, do you think SEO right now is heading toward growth or decline or a reinvention?
Kelsey Libert:
Yeah, I mean reinvention undoubtedly. I think ultimately search engine optimization can exist on any platform whether that search engine is Google technically or you’re searching through social media sites or through LLMs or AIO’s. Everything is based on a search and all we do is optimize how brands can appear within those platforms. Most of the best agencies I know are working across multiple platforms already or have the skills to easily translate into repurposing that content. Content for those different platforms. Building authority. All these things go hand in hand.
So yes, it is a reinvention. bBut I think really the nextgen SEO is kind of more of a blend of an analyst, a product manager, kind of an educator, and an influencer. What we’re able to do, kind of going back to that cursor statement, is take our knowledge and then suddenly expand it across a lot of different expertises in our strategy.
So, I think everybody’s going through a reinvention right now, myself included. Learning these technologies and applying my skills. It’s an exciting time. It’s not the death of SEO. It’s just we’re expanding the channels that we want to reach, basically.
Danny Goodwin:
Right. Absolutely. And then at SMX Advanced, really looking forward to this. We got an original data study coming out. The session is called How AI is reshaping SEO challenges, opportunities, and brand strategies for 2025. Do you want to maybe just start by talking a little bit about the survey and how you did it and what we’re looking at.
Kelsey Libert:
Yeah, sure. So, it was a partnership between Search Engine Land and then we also partnered with MFour on a consumer study. So, essentially what we did is we surveyed over 800 marketers kind of looking at how they are using AI, kind of what challenges they’re facing, what their fears are, what they’re excited about. Very similar to this kind of talk in a more strategy level.
And then second to that we did a consumer study looking at kind of how are consumers using AI, how do they feel about AI as usage in marketing and where does that overlap and kind of what we all believe is the greatest opportunity. What do they want that we’re not doing? What do they not want that we are doing? And how can we change our strategies to make sure that we’re delivering kind of value and being transparent in kind of what we are doing with AI.
And so, I think the biggest statistic to lead with here is that 78% of marketers and 68% of consumers are really concerned about AIdriven misinformation. more than the fear of job loss, which I think says a lot about our industry and what our responsibility is now and how we use AI. And how we’re making sure that we’re using editors still and that human in the loop process. And so that’s really what we’re going to dive into in this session is kind of where are the challenges and how can we get ahead of them as an industry and make sure that we’re using AI ethically, responsibly, and to scale great work at the end of the day.
Danny Goodwin:
That’s coming up on June 13. Kelsey will be giving that presentation. Is this your first SMX Advanced speaking gig?
Kelsey Libert:
It is my first. Yes, I have spoken at PubCon and MozCon and other international conferences, but this is my first SMX, so I’m excited.
Danny Goodwin:
That’s awesome. So, congrats on your first one. This is going to be a great session. Really looking forward to it. I know I’m super biased, but, yeah, this is awesome. I’m really looking forward to being able to share this with everyone at the show.
And of course, we’ll share it on Search Engine Land as well once the cat’s out of the bag about all the findings. So, is there anything else you want to tease about your session and maybe why you think if people who are here watching are thinking about coming to your session or just thinking about coming to the show, they haven’t booked their ticket yet. Is there anything that you would say to people?
Kelsey Libert:
I think another leading statistic that came out of this is 66% of consumers expect AI to replace traditional search engines in the next 5 years. And that’s a pretty alarming statistic, And so I think what the entire industry needs to embrace right now is if consumers recognize that they plan to be using these platforms much more then marketers need to understand how do we increase our brand visibility within them for the search terms that are relevant to us. And how do we even go beyond AI into these other platforms to ensure that we have high brand visibility in the next 5-10 years. People need to start realizing that the rate of change is exponential right in AI and every day it’s getting smarter and the capabilities are expanding and it’s just going to create a better search experience and this session will teach you what should you be looking out for and preparing for and how can you drive that brand visibility.
We’re also doing an analysis of which publishers exist for certain queries in LLMs more than others so that PR teams and brands can start targeting those to ensure that they’re relevant in the next three years. So, lots of really good data coming into the session. That’s one thing that I always try to do whenever I speak is bring fresh research, case studies and not just kind of the surface level. This is real strategy talk. So, I’m looking forward to it.
Danny Goodwin:
That’s amazing. Thanks Kelsey for joining us today. I’m really looking forward to your presentation at SMX Advanced. Again, we’re live in Boston June 11 to 13 for SMX Advanced. Join us there and you can see Kelsey and meet Kelsey live and in-person. Kelsey, thanks again for taking the time to chat with us today and I’m really looking forward to seeing you in Boston.
Kelsey Libert:
Thanks, Danny. See you soon.
Danny Goodwin:
Thanks everybody.